tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post4628887318530487773..comments2024-03-05T13:51:24.898-07:00Comments on Spacefreighters Lounge : THE LANGUAGE OF LOVE:THE KEY TO SUCCESSUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-18853874725817829602013-03-05T09:52:13.961-07:002013-03-05T09:52:13.961-07:00Linnea, I agree totally that both the SF elements ...Linnea, I agree totally that both the SF elements and the romantic elements MUST grow organically from the needs of the story. Otherwise whatever language you're speaking amounts to little more than pig Latin. Both world-building and sex (at whatever heat level) should serve to move the story forward, either at a plot level or at an emotional level. I think good writers and discerning readers of both genres would agree.<br /><br />Thanks so much for stopping by!Donna S. Frelickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16431686010313020234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-77231466106069461582013-03-04T13:43:47.332-07:002013-03-04T13:43:47.332-07:00Linnea, thank you for adding to my TBR pile. I too...Linnea, thank you for adding to my TBR pile. I too prefer the romance focus on the love-and-devotion angle.Rachel Leigh Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16004728242824462126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-36915632422040822302013-03-04T12:21:40.894-07:002013-03-04T12:21:40.894-07:00The funny thing is, I never consider the "rom...The funny thing is, I never consider the "romance aspect" when I'm writing. I consider characterization. What are this character's issues, his goal, her needs, his fears, her questions? The relationship/love is simply one of those issues. It has to flow naturally from the characters and how I've built them, or it won't work. Period.<br /><br />The same is true of SF world building. If you have a planet inhabited by some kind of beings/humans/aliens, then it has to have a breathable atmosphere (or equivalent). It's part of the "planet-building" as much as a relationship issue is in character-building.<br /><br />Where SF fails and where romance fails and where the combo of these two fail is when these elements are forced, when they don't flow naturally and logically from the characters or the worlds.<br /><br />Readers sub/consciously pick up on such things. For SFR to work both aspects--SF and Romance--must flow naturally. I have a fairly large male readership of my SFR books, including a lot of military dudes (judging from my fan mail), and I think the reason my books work for guys is that I don't hang the romance issue out there like an out-of-place banner. <br /><br />Ian Douglas--military SF author--has a terrific series (fun reads!)in his STAR CARRIER books http://whkeith.com/star-carrier.html that have fairly strong romantic subplots that are logical and well-done. And it's military SF. <br /><br />RM Meluch http://www.rmmeluch.com/ (okay, she's a she) also writes military SF with very strong and logical romances. <br /><br />I recommend both authors to romance writers striving to reach the SF audience, and to SF authors looking to see how romance can be done without the "ickies." ;-)<br /><br />Now neither gets as "lovey dovey" as many romance readers would like, but they hit a lot of the other reader expectations in--IMHO--a very satisfactory way.<br /><br />Julie Czerneda's TRADE PACT series also fits here, though it has a longer romance arc (over the series). <br /><br />The difference here that I find is that these SF based books with strong romance focus more on the love-and-devotion angle than activity between the sheets. <br /><br />As someone who believes that without the first (love/devotion) the second is only so much heavy breathing... I'm fine with that. :-) ~Linnea<br /><br />Linnea Sinclairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03633057411107208569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-73274441426776519772013-03-04T10:11:16.734-07:002013-03-04T10:11:16.734-07:00I'm still getting used to the idea of being a ...I'm still getting used to the idea of being a romance writer as well as scifi, but I agree the romance elements have to be as integral to the story as the scifi, otherwise it just won't work. I keep the scifi light only because I don't want to read a ton of technical detail myself, unless I've deliberately bought hard SF. It depends entirely on the story.Pippa Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15146591827060731958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-6193500719877908832013-03-04T10:02:47.217-07:002013-03-04T10:02:47.217-07:00Thanks, Laurie! It took me many years to fully acc...Thanks, Laurie! It took me many years to fully accept my identity as a romance writer. Now that I have I embrace it.<br /><br />The romance conventions are so so so important. My totally non-geek crit partner I got hooked on Firefly devoured my first SFR because of the romance. Now she's a geek in the making about to discover the wonders of Doctor Who and the awesome that is Captain Jack Harkness.<br /><br />I'm a huge Big Bang Theory fan too. Must get caught up!Rachel Leigh Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16004728242824462126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-49919750143669954552013-03-04T08:34:32.970-07:002013-03-04T08:34:32.970-07:00@Rachel--I agree that Leigh Michaels's book ON...@Rachel--I agree that Leigh Michaels's book ON WRITING ROMANCE is a terrific source. I also recommend it to EVERYONE!<br /><br />@Melissa--I agree that there is a huge untapped audience out there for SFR, many of whom love fanfic and pop culture SF. We'll truly capture them when we use the conventions of romance within the SF framework for our stories.<br /><br />@Patchi--My ms. UNCHAINED MEMORY started out as straight SF, too, until I realized it worked MUCH better as a romance.Donna S. Frelickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16431686010313020234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-28985098751858714642013-03-04T07:40:10.912-07:002013-03-04T07:40:10.912-07:00Great post. When I started writing my WIP I though...Great post. When I started writing my WIP I thought it was SF, then the characters told me their love story was equally important. I spent quite a bit of time this past year at Romance University trying to figure out what elements I need to incorporate to get the story to work.Patchihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09097638657085263738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-57416012329941783702013-03-03T17:52:19.898-07:002013-03-03T17:52:19.898-07:00Really great blog and replies.
Lots of women love...Really great blog and replies.<br /><br />Lots of women love shows like Dr Who, StarTrek...all the television shows that have been mentioned. How many watch Big Bang Theory because they relate to the world of comic book stores, game nights and popular scifi shows?<br /><br />Fanfic is often separated by 'pairing'--Spock/Uhura for instance. I think there are readers who do want romance and scifi.<br /><br />I don't think more science and thorough science explanations are what romance readers want. When the science comes into play they want it to move the plot forward in an interesting way. A clue they can grab onto, opening up the possibility the H/H will survive another day! Or they want it in the back ground, like replicators making your fav cup of tea.<br /><br /> I think srf readers want a glimpse of a future where couples still find each other, fall in love and have that happy life together.<br /><br />I stopped by Smart Bitches recently and was pleased to see a couple mentions of SFR. Enough to encourage me to stop by on a more regular basis. Didn't see that 3 or 4 years ago.<br /><br />I think the genre is still working its way into the romance reading community.<br /><br />Paranormal romance was pretty scarce for awhile...I remember after Harlequin quit the Shadows line...there were a couple vampire authors, not many. Then Ellora's Cave and other online bookstores showed up with tons of paranormal romances.Melisse Aireshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01478569639424075550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-32678757836172453592013-03-03T14:27:20.722-07:002013-03-03T14:27:20.722-07:00"It's a constant balance between POV, con..."It's a constant balance between POV, conflict, motivation, clashing goals, and getting two people to fall in love and choose each other over what they thought they wanted. It's HARD to do it well."<br /><br />That is one of the most succinct descriptions of what drives a romance that I've ever seen. <br /><br />Loved reading your thoughts, Rachel. Here, here!L. A. Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01198035351359321392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-23882884871233600562013-03-02T16:32:08.634-07:002013-03-02T16:32:08.634-07:00From a literary standpoint I've joined the SFR...From a literary standpoint I've joined the SFR ranks from a romance background. I've spent the last six years learning how to write romance, and then honing those romance skills and distilling down to the elements that work for me. Two years ago I semi-finaled in the Genesis contest run by ACFW, in the historical romance category. I missed being a finalist by *thismuch*. I've got some serious romance creds here.<br /><br />When I attend conferences all the classes I take are about romance. The best craft book I've ever read is On Writing Romance by Leigh Michaels. I highly recommend it to anyone who reads this who's still struggling with the forms and conventions of romance.<br /><br />My science fiction TV/movie background is extensive. My reading SF background isn't even good enough to be pathetic. I've always been drawn to romance first, specifically historical romance. I'm a girl, and even though my personal romance blew up in my face, I still crave it.<br /><br />Romance readers are VERY picky. We know what we like and we devour it. One unsatisfactory ending is all it takes to lose a reader forever.<br /><br />I agree with Donna more so than Chris Gerwel, though I found all of his articles endlessly fascinating. In order for SFR to break out it's not so much of a getting the SF fans to read them. It's getting the romance fans to give it a chance. The ones like me who grew up on Star Trek, Quantum Leap, Seaquest, Farscape, Stargate. We're out there and we love SF. But we don't want hard/military SF. We want SFR.<br /><br />Over 50% of the fiction sold in this country is romance. It is the bestselling genre of all time. And yet romance writers still get very little respect from our fellow writers in other genres, and even less when we try to combine our romance with something else we love. Writing a good romance is the hardest thing you will ever write. It's a constant balance between POV, conflict, motivation, clashing goals, and getting two people to fall in love and choose each other over what they thought they wanted. It's HARD to do it well.<br /><br />Writers coming at this from a science fiction background MUST learn, get comfortable with, and embrace the tropes and expectations of the romance genre. Once you start getting into and learning about the various structures of romance, what you can do has no limits. One thing romance does better than any other genre, IMO, is character building. Romance readers want character driven stories. Not plot driven stories. It has to be the character drives the plot, not the character is a participant in the plot or reacts to the plot.<br /><br />Characters have to take front and center. Firefly and Farscape are excellent examples of how to build and inhabit an SF world without making the SF inaccessible to outsiders. I got my crit partner hooked on Firefly because she grew up on Westerns. Nothing about it was inaccessible to her virgin SF brain, because the two genres in Firefly are seamlessly melded. I use Farscape as an example because Crichton is catapulted into a world he doesn't understand and we learn with him as we go through the show.Rachel Leigh Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16004728242824462126noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-22704260688877723822013-03-02T11:26:20.887-07:002013-03-02T11:26:20.887-07:00I like your inclusion of Frankenstein - it made me...I like your inclusion of Frankenstein - it made me think. Why did that book become so popular despite the potentially off-putting focus on science? When we remember that book do we really think about the science? It's a fascinating component, but much more "sticky," to my thinking, is the high concept of what is human, and the allure of the paranormal (specifically, the undead). <br /><br />I think this is a great example of one of Chris's points -- SFR authors who include components of more popular fiction may have the best chance of breaking through. And "high concept" always increases appeal, in my view. <br /><br />As for the suspense mashup idea, I'm with you, Donna! Your books are a great example. My novel ECHO 8 also blends sci-fi/romance/suspense (even a little noir). Sharon Lynn Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11886205665048406062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-70333024751606393242013-03-02T10:11:20.733-07:002013-03-02T10:11:20.733-07:00@Angelia--I can say I shared that superior attitud...@Angelia--I can say I shared that superior attitude for quite a while--even after I started writing what were clearly SF romances in my fanfic days. Lots of our colleagues still carry it, as you point out, Pauline.<br /><br />That's why I agree, Laurie, that the solution is not to lose our connection with our SF roots but to do a better job of cultivating our romance "branches".<br /><br />It IS a matter of mutual respect. SF is not for boys and romance is not for girls,either. Though I agree that for some Neanderthals the argument will be forever lost.Donna S. Frelickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16431686010313020234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-60693142802646806852013-03-02T10:05:50.466-07:002013-03-02T10:05:50.466-07:00I know. I was like, is this guy serious or just pu...I know. I was like, is this guy serious or just pulling our chains? My brother liked to put the cat among the pigeons, just to see us shriek.Paulinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06673963438671468441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-23859741709657568372013-03-02T09:45:37.557-07:002013-03-02T09:45:37.557-07:00Wow. The pushback is a little surprising. SF is fo...Wow. The pushback is a little surprising. SF is for boys only? Here's a direct link to Heather's post:<br /><br />http://www.thegalaxyexpress.net/2013/02/thoughts-on-chris-gerwels-science.htmlL. A. Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01198035351359321392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-61826864658038521322013-03-02T09:21:54.626-07:002013-03-02T09:21:54.626-07:00A really thoughtful and, IMHO, wise blog post. Rom...A really thoughtful and, IMHO, wise blog post. Romance readers know when they are being condescended to, they know when stuff is tossed in to appease them. They are way more savvy than a lot of authors give them credit for. I think you may have hit on the main problem. Not that the science isn't accessible, but that romance (or the respect for it) isn't there.<br /> <br />Did you see the guy who popped into Heather's post about this? (I wondered if he was joking?) But then you read about the harassment women experience in online gaming...<br /><br />We'll never change the minds that don't want to be changed. All we can do is write the stories we want to write, that we love. If you try to fake it, well, romance readers know. LOLPaulinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06673963438671468441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-72939677360956462662013-03-02T08:38:54.914-07:002013-03-02T08:38:54.914-07:00Excellent post, Donna.
I've been giving this...Excellent post, Donna. <br /><br />I've been giving this ongoing discussion a lot of thought. I know there's a huge audience of would-be SFR fans out there somewhere, it's all about how to make our subgenre more accessible to them. <br /><br />The romance <i>is</i> important, but not at the sacrifice of sound, or at least believable, engaging science. No, we don't have to write technical manuals, but using creative, inspiring technology and ideas helps create a more compelling story on all fronts. <br /><br />Living and working in other worldly environments (whether space, other planets, strange futures or alternate realities) <i>will</i> affect human interaction and these form the imaginative parameters for the language of romance in SFR.L. A. Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01198035351359321392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7808733415551134993.post-60102157757690723762013-03-02T08:19:22.205-07:002013-03-02T08:19:22.205-07:00I don't know about others but I always had a s...I don't know about others but I always had a strongly superior streak to me for reading SF and not "romance," which was stupid and girly. I spent much of my adolescence laboring under the Burden of My Genius. (now in my 40s I shake my head at that younger self) It took me a while to learn romance writing conventions and I still chafe under some.<br /><br />You have to speak romance. There is a flow to the romance novel. And there are genre cliches. Just as we avoid the "All Aliens are British with funny makeup" cliche, so too should we be avoiding the "Big Misunderstanding" cliche, where every conversation ends exactly 2 sentences before the words that would fix everything.<br /><br />You CAN keep your characters apart, but there has to be a reason (he's been hauled to the capitol in Birmingham to be executed for the capital offenses of being gay and Cherokee!) and one must be actively searching for the other. <br /><br />You can even kill your characters. I have two books where one of my heroes dies. It just isn't permanent. Divine intervention saves one who was already possessed by dead Egyptians. Medical technology saves the other, twice.<br /><br />I like my tech in the background and logical. My characters don't think about how their ship works, unless they're fixing it. They push a button and it goes, just as I do with my car. <br /><br />But don't give me laser showers either. Too many romance writers dabbling in sf don't bother to think about the tech and prefer to just slap "laser" in front of everything. So we have laser swords, laser showers and probably laser dildoes. (ouch)<br /><br />Six pages of how something works is dull. Unless the character is an engineer, this is an infodump the reader is going to skim. <br /><br />You have to be bilingual, sometimes more, to write cross-genre. I had to speak Western and Horror and Romance and Steampunk to write one story.<br />Angelia Sparrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13195112449945205248noreply@blogger.com