Eldest: well, you know I always wanted them to get together. They both had this similar inner kind of conflict, but Rey didn't know who her family was while Ben did. He was kind of under a lot of pressure maybe to live up to being a Solo and a Skywalker with Vader as his grandad, while Rey was struggling to figure out who and what she was, her place in everything.
Me: so they were sort of running in parallel but from different starting points.
Eldest: yeah they were definitely running in parallel but Ben started knowing who his family were and therefore following the path of his grandad while suffering the conflict of being a Solo, while Rey started with no idea who she was and then battling with the conflict that surfaced from finding out who she was and how her background was similar to Ben's.
Me: one thing that bothered me about that was Luke and Leia both knowing her ancestry and not telling her. In the original trilogy, Luke was frustrated with Kenobi for not being told Vader was actually his father, and finding that out while in the middle of a battle with his dad seems particularly cruel. Yet Luke was okay with Rey having to do the same thing - I felt like despite seeing her spirit, they didn't have faith in her, maybe because when he finally took on training her, she went straight to the Dark Side. Is that why he was afraid to tell her? Instead, he left her to find out the hard way like he did? Even Leia went along with that? Seems harsh.
Eldest: it was harsh. If he was so bothered by the fact he found out the identity of his father so suddenly and in a way he didn't expect or want, then surely he wouldn't want the same for someone else? Obviously he had a background with Ben, knowing that his grandad was Darth Vader and then seeing him turn into the villain that he did must've motivated him to hide it from Rey. But he must've known Rey would find out eventually, especially knowing the bond between her and Ben and the knowledge that Ben had as part of the First Order, which suggests that he didn't have as much faith in her as him and Leia suggested. If he and Leia saw her spirit and decided to train her despite her grandad, they would have told her the identity of her grandad since they would have known it wouldn't affect her morals and attitudes. In the end, she still ended up on the right side despite knowing who her grandad was, meaning they should have had faith in her all along but that's also one of the reasons I like Reylo so much.
Me: tortured heroes are always my favourite! And I have to say, Kylo/Ben had a far better redemption than Vader (whose redemption in RoJ was later ruined by the prequels in my eyes). For me, Kylo started out as way too similar to Anakin, a brat having tantrums, to an appreciation for his sneakiness in TLJ (which otherwise I hated), to being the kind of hero I adore in RoS. But I feel seriously cheated. I disliked TLJ so intensely and RoS spent so much time undoing so much of TLJ that I feel we didn't get a complete trilogy. I really would have loved more than that one amazing kiss for the two of them (and I know you agree with me on how awesome that was and how we all deserved so much more. So much better for them!).
Eldest: they deserved a better ending that that. They spent the entirety of TLJ (even though RoS undid it) finding out about and figuring out their bond to then spend RoS figuring out what to do with that bond and what it meant only for them to end with one kiss that was instantly shattered by Ben's death. He had an incredible redemption arc and by the end of the trilogy became my favourite character because of it but it deserved to be developed more because it didn't seem an entirely redeemed or happy ending for Ben. And yes, the beginning half of the film was borderline ruined by the decision to undo the actions of the last film, which then made for a slow and disjunct beginning half where the acting was below par and it didn't seem to have a definitive storyline. Despite the disjunct first half, though, it did bring the trilogy to a fairly satisfying close, for me at least, and it provided the Reylo I'd wanted in TLJ. Some of the character developments were questionable, namely Po and Rey (who previously was my favourite character) but I liked some of the new characters and thought the second half was far better and more satisfying. The Reylo was an added bonus.
Me: Reylo saved that last film for me, but in so many ways I've been disappointed by Disney's decisions on Star Wars, and in some ways that makes me feel relieved that the saga is ended. And that's heartbreaking to me after a lifetime of fandom. A New Hope was eye opening for me as a youngster, taking me from writing fantasy to scifi. Of course, some of it was forced by the death of Carrie Fisher, stealing a story focussed on Leia from us, and to a degree I can understand how that had a drastic impact. I cannot understand the changes to Poe's character, especially making him a drug smuggler - did we need that? To me, it set his character back in an unnecessary way, and his bitchy bickering with Rey just made him look like a jealous boyfriend. I don't feel the new characters really got a chance to develop either being as it was the last of the trilogy. So it leaves me unsatisfied in a lot of ways.
Eldest: unfortunately, that's true. The new characters could have been so much more but were rushed and almost forced into the film and Poe's character was turned into a man who experienced a lot of bitter jealousy and resorted to pettiness too many times. The final battle redeemed him slightly but other than that it was disappointing they portrayed him in that way. It wasn't the greatest of conclusions, especially considering the vastness of the fandom and how long it has existed and I can see why many were disappointed but I don't think they did all that badly considering how much pressure they were under to create a good finale.
Me: yeah, I do think they were trying too hard to please everyone and ended up pleasing very few. I don't hate Disney for it but my overall feeling is disappointment, and after my initial thrill with Rogue One (still love it), I honestly can't muster any enthusiasm for any of the current (Solo) or upcoming extended universe with the end of the Skywalker saga. Thanks for talking it over with me here today (I know we'll probably have more to say about it to each other again).
Eldest: we certainly will. But for now, may the Force be with you and goodbye.
Great discussion and you both raised some interesting points.
ReplyDeleteOn this: "In the original trilogy, Luke was frustrated with Kenobi for not being told Vader was actually his father, and finding that out while in the middle of a battle with his dad seems particularly cruel." I think Yoda's words to Luke were, "Not ready, were you." And Luke suffered the consequences of finding out too soon and rushing to face Vader before he was prepared, which cost him a hand and nearly got him killed. Maybe Luke and Leia didn't want to tell Rey her lineage until they were sure she was strong enough in the light side to understand the implications. Just my take.
You said: "I cannot understand the changes to Poe's character, especially making him a drug smuggler - did we need that?" I think they were trying to turn him into a Han-esque character because no one was really filling that lovable scoundrel niche. And I agree, it wasn't necessary. Ben showed so much of Han at the end (Adam Driver was brilliant!) it really overshadowed Poe's shallower parallels anyway. IMHO.
You said: "To me, it set his character back in an unnecessary way, and his bitchy bickering with Rey just made him look like a jealous boyfriend." I rather liked the bickering. I thought it was entertaining and made the three--Rey, Poe and Finn--seem almost like siblings. I can understand how mileage may vary on that element though.
As for my take on the Reylo thing, I had to put that in a whole new blog (after seeing the movie again and soaking in a lot more of the details). It will post Monday.
Thanks for posting your joint thoughts. :)